Yours, yours, yours

in LeoFinance •  5 months ago 

In my recent post where I mentioned push back against liquifying and selling HIVE and many people prefer to vote on those looking long-term, meaning powering up, I got a comment asking,

What happens to those who live by their hive earnings? They shouldn't sell some rewards?

It is their HIVE, they can do what they want with it - but it is part of the game, part of the experience and "living off HIVE" doesn't come with a special set of rules and exemptions. If someone wants to try and earn a living on Hive, good luck to them, but it doesn't mean they are going to get supported to do so. As I replied,

Personally, I think it is crazy to try and live off Hive, as I do not think the platform is stable enough at this point, and the crypto industry fluctuates wildly. But everyone is free to do as they do - but it doesn't mean there won't be resistance from others doing what they do.

Essentially, actions have consequences and no one is bound to the blockchain and no one is forced to earn on Hive. Yes, life sucks for many in this world, but Hive is far too immature as a platform to support much earning and charity and at these prices, it is ludicrous to expect everyone to earn. Some do, some earn more than others and perhaps there might even be a few who can live off of their earnings - but that can only be a fraction of users and it is likely dependent on where they live.

In 2018, the federal poverty line was $12,140 for an individual, $16,460 for a family of two, $20,780 for a family of three, and $25,100 for a family of four. source

What that means is that based on my earnings as a pretty high earner on Hive, I would be considered around the pverty line for earnings in the US - but I live in Finland - and in Finland, instead of 12,000 for the poverty line, it is 17,000. This means that I would be about 45% below the poverty line, meaning quite extreme poverty. The dollar line for poverty is going to be hjighly localized - so while I can't live off of Hive in Finland, somewhere else, a person could love off much less than I earn. This is the way of the world economy, it isn't Hive unique.

Some people would say that if you don't live full-time on Hive (or can't), then it damages the narrative of inviting people to Hive and selling the dream of "come to Hive and do what you love and earn an income". I don't buy that. Like I said before, this is an early stage platform and if you invest time, capital, energy, etc. into this blockchain, I believe that it will pay off both in the short-term and especially so in the long-term.
@khaleelkazi
You can read the rest of the post, Can you really earn a living on Hive

this is an early stage platform and if you invest time, capital, energy, etc. into this blockchain, I believe that it will pay off both in the short-term and especially so in the long-term.

Yes - this is a long-term project and an investment for many, but not all. I look long, I power up, I buy Hive off of exchanges from people who either need to sell to live or, don't believe in the project. There are plenty of people milking and selling into Bitcoin or other alts (or worse, fiat), but this gives me an opportunity to buy in the hope that it will pay off later. It is a risk.

Some people think that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, and while I understand the idiom, it assumes that the person with one in the hand has very little chance of getting the two in the bush. Skills matter and I see that having the mentality to go long on an investment is a skill that not many people possess, which is why there are far more uninvested than invested people in this world.

It has always rubbed me the wrong way that people expect Hive to provide them an income, that people should vote them out of the goodness of their heart, that they believe their content is worth more than it gets no matter what it is and that they can extract without powering up and supporting others. People want the community to support themselves as the individual, but don't necessarily give anything of substance back to the community. That kind of "community" fails every time - which is where the clusterfuck that is the global economy, is headed.

I can't force anyone to think and act for their own long-term benefit and trust me, I have tried. I have supported some people here quite heavily, people who have needs, but they still couldn't bring themselves to act in service to their needs - their desires won out every time, they did what they wanted. There is nothing wrong with that, but I am not to blame for their position and I can't be expected to keep enabling their avoidance of servicing their needs.

Doing what you want is great, but it is always going to end in tears if what you want to do doesn't provide you with what you need to have. If you can't afford to eat, why the fuck are you drinking and smoking?

I want people to try and earn a living on Hive, but no one is entitled to earn a living on Hive, it all has to get passed through the marketplace of supply and demand and is subject to all kinds of dynamics. There is no single magic formula to follow that ensures earnings, it is a lot of trial and error, building a space and owning it. Your skills might be more or less in demand than mine, they might be better or worse than mine - but there is more to it than that, there is complexity in social dynamics, taste, quality, personality and a thousand other factors. People think that if they don't get what they want from the system, it is broken,

Sounds a bit like these people:

Incels (/ˈɪnsɛlz/ IN-selz), a portmanteau of "involuntary celibates", are members of an online subculture who define themselves as unable to find a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one. Discussions in incel forums are often characterized by resentment, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against sexually active people. source

"incel forums are often characterized by resentment, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against sexually active people."

They sound like sweethearts - any girl would be lucky to never meet one.

"Entitlement issues" is probably one of the phrases that will define the era.... fucking internet. But it isn't the internet that started this, the "everyone gets a prize" cultural shift started well before - participation awards that didn't factor in effort and skill were being introduced when I was a kid. Rather than encouraging people to try, it encouraged them to participate for a reward, like Pavlov's dog and this was perfect conditioning for social media. A breeding ground for entitlement and make do with low-quality and low-skill results in life.

And here we are.

I have nothing against people wanting to earn on Hive, but they have to understand that this has an element of competition, just like when you go to the store and choose one packet of noodles over another. When you make that decision and subsequent purchase, do you think about the poor workers in the factory of all the brands you didn't buy? What about when you buy a pair of Nikes over Reeboks, or download one mobile game instead of another? Do you feel bad for the workers who may be producing high quality products and services that you aren't supporting?

What is your excuse for not considering them?

More companies fail than survive and many that fail weren't bad at what they do at all - some might have even been better than those who made it - just as there are football players who earn more than comparable or better players, same for actors, writers, coders, engineers, doctors and lawyers.

There are more factors in play than individual skill and when looking long, this becomes even more apparent. The best painter will eventually become passé if they don't reinvent, the best basketball player will degrade, the greatest song writer will lose their edge. However, the ones who invest well while they can for the future, protect themselves against failure by backing their own future and owning their experience.

As i see it, it is up to each of us to decide how we behave, what we do and where we place our value on Hive. For me, the long-term potential of the platform is enough for me to keep working daily for many hours here and two jobs in the real world, so that I can invest into Hive and crypto in general for my own future. I can't force anyone else to do the same - their future is theirs and they are the ones who will live it. Opportunity slips through most fingers every day and when it comes to investing into an immature industry with high uncertainty, most people have slippery fingers and can't hold much for long. This has happened in every industry, where very few from the starting fringe, make it through to the mainstream.

Your HIVE is yours, your keys are yours, the choice is yours.

Taraz
[ Gen1: Hive ]

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I agree that it's your Hive and you should do what you want, however, I feel a kinship towards people that are powering up to build it up.

I know that is wrong, but, if it is all liquid, many will take it and run, just like so many did when they first got their airdrop. What a huge disappointment!

Anyway, great write as always! Thank you, always!

!tip

What I wonder is, if the people who get all liquids take it and run, are they generally the kinds of people who will add value here anyway, are they the types of people who would use their stake too build?

I agree that it's your Hive and you should do what you want, however, I feel a kinship towards people that are powering up to build it up.

I am 100% with you here Denise :)

I am in that mindset as well. my support is there to users who are staking and growing their account. Why support someone powering down offering no value in return. I actually don't care if there post is superb as I refuse to support them. This is a long term thing and if people want instant financial benefits then I suggest finding a better job.
At some point in the future once everything has settled down I would love to supplement my income with Hive rewards and earnings but that is in the far distance with no guarantees. Hive is a shot in the dark and a shot at least of doing something to help change peoples lives. I would hate to be living off it now as I would not expect to receive support from others if I was cashing out monthly. Many have though and I know longer follow them.
Many users joined around the same time as me and are sitting on a fraction of my stake so where is the benefit of supporting them? This is a two way street and in their minds a one way.

This is a long term thing and if people want instant financial benefits then I suggest finding a better job.

It seems that finding a job is a hard thing to do for many.

At some point in the future once everything has settled down I would love to supplement my income with Hive rewards and earnings but that is in the far distance with no guarantees.

Yep. Hopefully one day it is possible.

This is a two way street and in their minds a one way.

I wonder how some people manage in life.

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Yeah, I have championed people to discern the differences between what they Want compared to what they NEED! It makes me sad how these two things get conflated to the degree of folks tending to be toxic to themselves, oftentimes, without even realizing it.

I think that the self-gratification factor kicks in and with an I, Me, Mine culture... not too many consider much beyond how it immediately affects them in the now. What is the excuse for not considering further into the decisions being made. It would seem that not many care or are not aware of how to care more. Critical Thinking has been exchanged for Thinking Critically! Most people know why they complain but don't understand the layers of complexity in what all there is to be grateful for. This ingratitude combined with the trophy culture is a perfect storm of ushering in the idiocracy we see enveloping the entire world. This has permeated all levels of income and sometimes the money can be a security blanket to keep one comfortable in their ignorance towards gratitude.

Of course, I am generalizing with perhaps too wide of a stroke but there seems to be an organized strategy helping exacerbate this issue. The Nake Communist seems to be coming to pass.

Posted Using LeoFinance

I left off the d on NAKED! Shame on me... hahhaha
The song I ME MINE by the Beatles... give it a listen.

Posted Using LeoFinance

these two things get conflated to the degree of folks tending to be toxic to themselves, oftentimes, without even realizing it.

"This place is toxic" .... look in the mirror first.

Critical Thinking has been exchanged for Thinking Critically!

I like this!

This ingratitude combined with the trophy culture is a perfect storm of ushering in the idiocracy we see enveloping the entire world. This has permeated all levels of income and sometimes the money can be a security blanket to keep one comfortable in their ignorance towards gratitude.

That security blanket keeps people warm - and asleep. Rock bottom is a cold place full of motivation to not tarry there for long.

I just made that up myself! Thinking Critically vs Critical Thinking.... we should make a t-shirt! hahaha

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It ends up as personal responsibility, doesn't it? I am responsible for what I do and get. What a concept.

I chased gold off and on for a few years when I first moved here. I found a friend and we had great fun finding likely spots and harvesting samples which we brought home to process. We actually found a little gold (it's really common around here. Commercial quantities aren't common :)) but it was never enough to pay for our equipment or even the gas we burned. But we had a lot of fun and saw a lot or really cool places so the expense was really worth it.

I don't do ROI studies on hive but I suspect that you could probably expect a return of 10% per year with only a few hours work per day. So invest $250,000 and have an income well over the poverty level in either country. The problem being the ones that think they can earn the income without the investment, who don't consider the time investment needed in any case.

I come to Hive every day with no expectations save that I can write what I want, post it as I want and engage with the people that read and comment on my writing.

Not many people are wired to play the long game. They are the ones that think it better to build a shade structure rather than plant a tree that will not only give them or their children shade but provide a home for the birdies in the future.

I am responsible for what I do and get. What a concept.

Mind blown....

but it was never enough to pay for our equipment or even the gas we burned. But we had a lot of fun and saw a lot or really cool places so the expense was really worth it.

Sounds familiar for me in Hive :D

So invest $250,000 and have an income well over the poverty level in either country

The problem is that for most with the 250K to put into Hive, they don't need the 25K. The math adds up though and that 25K is about 125,000 Hive -so at a decent bull market, could be worth north of a million. plus the 1.25M Hive principle would be worth 6-7M

Most don't know where food comes from these days -let alone have the patience to raise a tree to maturity and bear fruit.

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Earning a living off of HIVE is still a bit too much to ask imo. The way I see my earnings from HIVE is, something for a very dry day, where a few buck extra saves your ass! Or maybe buy something fancy for the lady on a special occasion when breaking it from your regular job salary is a bit of undue luxury. Or maybe even get something fancy for yourself, something that you've been eyeing but never had that extra cash to make the jump.

I'm kind of into designer fragrances and I have in fact used some of my earnings from the blockchain (while we were still steem lol) to buy me a few bottles which I would have otherwise NEVER done if I was paying from my pocket, never. Period.

Bottom line, earnings from hive can give you an extra boost in the luxury department from time to time, but I see no reason to be losing on the HP and powering down. The more we let it grow, the more shot at luxury we have in the days to come!

Earning a living off of HIVE is still a bit too much to ask imo.

Definitely, but it has been on the tips of tongues for a very long time.

The way I see my earnings from HIVE is, something for a very dry day, where a few buck extra saves your ass!

The very dry days is how I see it now - the very wet future is where I hope it to be - but there are no guarantees in this investment.

The more we let it grow, the more shot at luxury we have in the days to come!

This is how I roll - and I don't care for luxury -but I care less for being under the control of others. :)

!ENGAGE 20

but there are no guarantees in this investment.

Well, that's the case with all investments. We take calculated risks, and we come out on the winning side if our calculations were correct. So far the math for hive looks good to me!

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So many users from 1-2 years ago have disappeared. Was it because of entitlement and not being satisfied by what they could get out of it? Or they just got tired of chasing the moon? Or they got bored. A good advice a friend once gave me about Hive was don't focus on numbers and you will be happy. I mean, sure, some people find it exciting, game, but also isn't that very tiring? Constant rat race?

I guess I also learned early to focus on rewarding good content and rarely look at what my favorite authors do with their stake. Because honestly, if you look from that stand point it should not matter. But then I also heard that if no one powers up, the value of HIVE will aslo not increase.

Not focusing on numbers is a good approach for most, though some are inspired by the numbers too - depends on the person. I think that "depends on the person" is why most people leave - they have personal expectations about what this place is and what it can do for them and ultimately, the person will be disappointed when it is not what they expected it to be.

In my opinion, people can do what they want with their stake, I just hope that they use some of it and some of their time for improving the place. Complaining about what it is and then supporting it in ways that keep it the same or degrade it is not a good position.

I am a disappearer who is finding his way back (Slowly). All of the above applied to me. I got tired of chasing the bigger accounts and the big votes. I was sick of the bidbot game, and ultimately, a promotion at work gave me a lot less time to spend writing my own content, let alone curating. So I left, I would check in every now and then, but it seemed like the same people saying the same things every time I checked in.

Coming back and learning about communities is a big help to me. I subscribed to a bunch of communities last night and am finding a lot more interesting content than I did wading through the Trending or Recent pages of the old format.

I don't know how much this comment has to do with the OP but you asked some questions I could give an opinion on, so there you go. hehe

I'm not a disappearer, but I have grown tired many, many times seeing the bicycle being invented over and over, and people abusing every kind of loophole they can find. I have been an almost disappearer couple of times for different reasons, but mostly because of getting fed up by the ugliness in people and in myself as I let it rub off on me. At those times I just revert back to the advice the friend gave me and focus on whatever I am doing for sanity reasons.

Things have gone better in terms of content discovery as like minded people gather in their tinier communities, but there is still long way to go.

Glad you commented :)

Living off Hive is very damgerous, even if you live in a place where 10 dollars a day is sweet income. Actually it's difficult for average people to make ~50 Hive a day without getting annoying.
I find when I'm not powering down I get more votes. 50% liquid is enough at this stage.
I don't like to vote for people who are clearly milking Hive and a lot of people who do it for a living are boarderline milking Hive. ~more milk more income.

That said I appreciate the value of Hive. I like using my liquid Hive to invest in other cryptos. My account is established to the point where I feel I don't need to invest money in Hive anymore. But if the indicators are right, I can always shift my alt coin investments back here.

I don't like to vote for people who are clearly milking Hive and a lot of people who do it for a living are boarderline milking Hive.

It depends on how much they earn and need to live - but there are a couple here who earned millions depending on when they sold, but have nothing left and when they had something, used it primarily to circle and self vote.

I like using my liquid Hive to invest in other cryptos. My account is established to the point where I feel I don't need to invest money in Hive anymore.

I think there is nothing wrong with this, but again, it is going to depend on various factors. If at some point you complain because your rewards aren't high enough, after selling everything you have at a high - that is poor. Not that I would expect that from you, but all actions have reactions and often, we don't want to accept our part in our results.

I agree. I have no problem helping people earn when it's not ridiculous and I can see a sincere effort (the last part is key). My personal approach is Hive owes me nothing. I've basically stopped caring about rewards at this point. I post about what I want to post when I want to post. I don't care too much about my 17 or so Hive a week from curation even though I do alright with that % wise. I'm basically looking for a 50X gain and just the fun in the meantime.

I'm basically looking for a 50X gain and just the fun in the meantime.

At that point, I wonder who will be complaining.

It will change the voting dynamics. People will get upset that their posting rewards won't go up by 50X (way more people will be posting and just the psychology of over-rewarding will step in).
Curation will be a mess at that point (fighting about over-rewarding), because it scales much more closely with the price of Hive barely affecting it.

I am with several of the commenters who don't pay attention to maximizing curation rewards, I just want to vote what I like.

I do have a question when it comes to wanting to support those who are in for the long term of Hive. When I vote for what I like, I don't pay a lick of attention to if the post is 100% powered up or not. Is that something that you look at as you curate? Does it matter to that level?

I'm finding my way back to Hive after abandoning Steem over a year ago, so feeling my way through this new landscape.

I vote on what I like. If it is a new account I have no idea about, I will have a look at what they have put up recently. I don't worry about the 100% power up etc, or even if people sell or not - but when they are complaining about the platform, but their history shows they haven't really done much about improving it through what they have offered...

Welcome back.

A startup environment isn't for everyone, but Hive/Steem lets anyone take part. This means that the rate of failure is likely to be higher for individuals than if everyone is an entrepreneur mindset kind of person. Facebook lets anyone in too, but it offers nothing in economic return, which means that taking part doesn't need anything special. When we go to work each day, we go to work to fill a position with tasks and guidelines - we don't get paid to do what we want.

This is quite a big one for me... reward people who are powering up rather than selling off.

I had 100% sympathy with Cryptofinally until I checked her wallet, then all of a sudden I didn't feel that much 'love' coming from her for Hive after all!

Yeah - 100 comments in 2 years isn't a good sign. Ever notice that lots of "crypto influencers" don't seem to hold?

I don't pay enough attention to them to know either way whether they hold or not!

I think a lot of the ones that have been on here the last 4 years - sold. Remember, most of these people are self-proclaimed influencers though :D

You've just reminded me of Jerry Banfield - I don't why anyone would every have taken him seriously!

Necessity - it is the mother of following stupidity ;D

Your HIVE is yours, your keys are yours, the choice is yours.

Hive is ours, your keys are yours, the more you take ownership the more sooner more people can live off from our Hive

the more you take ownership the more sooner more people can live off from our Hive

I agree. If this works, thousands can live off it comfortably.

Let’s together make it happen.

Ps. I should change buy to BUIDL

BE50EC51-967F-45BB-A4F4-2B31C9E5E628.jpeg

This is very motivating @nathanmars! :)
I do believe USD 215 could be a possibility someday.

Sky is the limit for our $HIVE

Very well said, I will have to go back and read some the the other comments.

!ENGAGE 50

Also I will need to read the comments on this one when i am done with some running around.

I have struggled to stay up with the comments today too. I will try better tomorrow :)

I had a very slow day yesterday comment wise, (Only 2), I think today will be a make up day for comments. I got pretty busy yesterday.

I was planning making it up tonight but ended being home alone with my daughter, so played instead. Decided to take a couple hours away from the screen after that as I think the 2 posts are about 4000 words combined. I have answered most, but will head to bed and get to the rest in the morning. 1am here. Night mate.

Have a good rest.

Do people actually think like that after a lifetime of participation awards? I don't remember getting them in school (or maybe for some things, but in fairness I don't remember a lot and especially not right this second after a few too many really late nights in a row trying to finish that stupid only-just-a-sketchy XD). My boys used to get one every year from playing footy and it got to a point where we were just viewing them as mementos of that event/year rather than anything to be particularly proud of XD

Yeah, they do think like that. People coming straight out of uni expecting C-level salaries - I see it often.

My boys used to get one every year from playing footy and it got to a point where we were just viewing them as mementos of that event/year rather than anything to be particularly proud of XD

I got one for hockey when I was 7 - the only one I got for participation. The things I earmned for skill always had more value.

  ·  5 months ago (edited)

If you knew my kids you could see how much they value their competition medals over the participation trophies ;D

Middle child probably values hers more than her older brother as girls' gymnastics around here is a hell of a lot tougher than boys' gymnastics on sheer numbers. There's so few boys doing gymnastics that it's perfectly normal for everyone my son's group to get medals even at states level because there's usually only 2-3 of them for that age group in that level.

Having said that even youngest doesn't value his participation medals and he doesn't compete.

I don't know what a C-level salary is, but I guess it would be similar to stories one of JJ's friends was telling us. He used to work in construction and started at the ground floor (doing basic labouring stuff) and eventually worked his way up to site management, and has done interviews with fresh uni graduates who are expecting to be able to waltz straight into management positions with zero practical experience of the building process by virtue of having studied in an institution for three or four years.

Speaking of which there seems to be one of those question topic things floating around about the relevance of degrees XD

oh ps - just on participation medals and the like, I have to wonder if dumbarse parents aren't drivers of some of these things, as I know a small handful of parents at gymnastics complain the age groups are unfair because their kids are competing against slightly older kids and thus have "no chance" of getting a medal.

I wonder if people would be happy if they turned up to a bar and were assigned a random partner for showing up? Perhaps some would be :D

Corporate level salaries, upper management. I have had experience similar to JJ's, kids showing up wanting to have a salary that gives them a new house, Audi and 4 weeks travel abroad - at 25 years of age.

Speaking of which there seems to be one of those question topic things floating around about the relevance of degrees

There always is ;)

Yes, parents are largely to blame for this as they instill most of the values and are drivers of "achievement" even if it is irrelevant.

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As an investor it makes total sense to support the people who are in this for the long term. They're the ones who are actually laying the foundation stones for something great that might come out of this someday. Neither Facebook nor Twitter would've been what it is today if all the investors and employees who held shares were in it for milking it from the start. The ones who kept patience and worked their asses for all those years now see their shares valued at billion dollars. I think people need to start looking at Hive in a similar way and hold on for the long haul. That's when something great may come out of this, if at all.

As an investor it makes total sense to support the people who are in this for the long term. They're the ones who are actually laying the foundation stones for something great that might come out of this someday

Yep - but it is hard to "know" who is long-term - but it is easy to know when those who you thought were, leave loudly and then come back... they will leave again. loudly.

The ones who kept patience and worked their asses for all those years now see their shares valued at billion dollars.

I wonder what Hive will look like with a market cap of 5 billion.

I just look at how long someone's been on the platform, rep, HP, and posts about hive if he/she has made any and try to come to a conclusion. I think it helps if we have been following them for a long time to understand what their goals are. Sometimes those conclusions may go wrong too.

I'm guessing we might see tonnes of apps and games and starting of mainstream adoption at 5 billion market cap and we'd be sipping margaritas by the beach and celebrating!😋

Rendering useful service. There you go. The key to succeed anywhere and in anything in life. Not only on Hive. Expecting all because you need it or want it is the modern plague of the mind. Reward come to those who deserve it. Long term is the right kind of thinking in here. A mind who has a visionary attitude, less about the prize, more about the journey.

Most people render themselves useless.

A mind who has a visionary attitude, less about the prize, more about the journey.

The journey is the prize - most people are trapped on the spot, thinking they are going somewhere.

Yes, that is their problem, the wrong mental attitude.

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